00:00:00:02 – 00:00:17:22
Jim Serpico
Welcome to Bread for the People. I’m Jim Serpico. My next guest is a multi-award-winning television producer, showrunner and writer. She’s also traveled the world, sharing stories about food, culture, and the people who are passionate about both. Karen Katz, welcome to Bread for the People.

00:00:18:01 – 00:00:19:24
Karen Katz
Hey, Jim. It’s great to be here.

00:00:21:01 – 00:00:36:12
Jim Serpico
I appreciate you joining me. We, we both are professional television producers with a love of food. So it’s always nice to have somebody who shares those two passions on the show.

00:00:37:04 – 00:00:37:20
Karen Katz
Absolutely.

00:00:37:21 – 00:00:58:01
Jim Serpico
I have specialized in scripted television. Mm hmm. Um, you, on the other hand, have specialized in non-scripted. And for our listeners, you are kind of a pioneer in food non-scripted program, having what you do about 11 years with Emerald.

00:00:58:21 – 00:01:01:03
Karen Katz
Actually, 13, 13, 14 years.

00:01:01:04 – 00:01:13:20
Jim Serpico
Yeah. And you. You guys broke the mold? Yeah. Changed the food space. Did you know that going in that was the vision for that program or have any experience with food?

00:01:15:01 – 00:01:39:06
Karen Katz
Absolutely not. I had to be quite honest at the time that I was brought on to do the show. Food TV was not cool yet. I mean, we were coming out of the years of, you know, Julia Child was the coolest thing up to that point. But at Food Network, there were shows like Three Dog Bakery and, you know, really small-scale shows.

00:01:39:18 – 00:01:57:20
Karen Katz
And I actually thought it was be a step down to do a food show. But the woman who brought me on, Eileen Opie Touch, she sort of talked me into it, but I thought, oh, I’ll just do this for six months. So it’s just another gig to me. And I had no idea, you know, what was about to happen.

00:01:58:25 – 00:02:05:01
Jim Serpico
How soon from when you started and I guess the first one airing, did you realize you were on to something?

00:02:05:14 – 00:02:31:01
Karen Katz
Well, to be honest, I did not start the show. There was one year where it started and there were a lot of problems backstage and all that stuff. So they cleaned house a little bit. But it was almost instant where he had we at one point when we decided to put tickets available via a phone line, we said set the word out and the phone lines crashed.

00:02:31:15 – 00:02:36:11
Karen Katz
That’s how many people wanted to kind of see the show. And that’s when I knew we were on to something.

00:02:37:23 – 00:02:42:17
Jim Serpico
That’s pretty amazing. So that was taped in front of a live audience.

00:02:42:18 – 00:03:05:12
Karen Katz
Yeah, we did three shows a day, three one-hour shows a day, three different audiences. And it was insane. Because of Emerald’s schedule, he could only really shoot one week a month because he had his restaurant businesses and he had everything else. So we had to shoot 15 shows in one week, and it was an insane schedule.

00:03:06:02 – 00:03:08:16
Jim Serpico
Wow. How many shows a year were you doing our season?

00:03:08:24 – 00:03:10:07
Karen Katz
We did 90 shows a year.

00:03:11:21 – 00:03:14:08
Jim Serpico
Wow. Yeah. That’s pretty intense.

00:03:14:11 – 00:03:31:18
Karen Katz
It was very intense. But. But we really only shot one week a month. And then eventually, they. I convinced the studio because it was killing us. I mean, the network to allow us to go down to two shows a day, which is still insane. But we did it right.

00:03:31:25 – 00:03:38:23
Jim Serpico
So by doing that show, did you start to fall in love with like, were you a cook, Were you a baker? Were you interested in this stuff? Well, I.

00:03:38:23 – 00:04:08:13
Karen Katz
Always liked food and I thought I was an okay cook, but it hadn’t taken over my life. But Emerald is so genuine about food and his passion for it that it was infectious. It wasn’t just me, but everyone on the crew got into food and were cooking and sharing stories. And it really brought all of our game up in terms of what we were willing to try and really made us very thoughtful about food.

00:04:09:05 – 00:04:16:08
Jim Serpico
Right. So did that show when it ended that it changed your trajectory? And were you known as a food producer from that point on?

00:04:16:20 – 00:04:36:28
Karen Katz
Well, you probably know that, you know, you get kind of pigeonholed into, you know, what you’ve last done. And I had a whole career before Admiral came along. So I did stay in food for a while. I, I did a show with Buddy Valastro, the Cake Boss. I didn’t do Cake Boss, but I did his competition show. Next.

00:04:36:28 – 00:05:01:15
Karen Katz
Great Baker. Because at that time, everything you know, the food and TV industry was changing, so competition was getting more popular and I just really needed to get my chops in that area. So I did that show and then I that trajectory sent me into more competition shows which brought me into Southeast Asia and traveling the world.

00:05:02:08 – 00:05:24:25
Jim Serpico
Right now, you tell a story on your blog about shooting in Hawaii. Mm hmm. And the crew shows up late and people resented the fact that they looked at you as the person that. I don’t know if it’s last year out on. But they wanted to be in Hawaii as a vacation. Exactly. They didn’t want to. I mean, the typical day on set, right?

00:05:24:26 – 00:05:32:16
Jim Serpico
Yeah. Especially when you doing those field pieces. I would think it’s a lot like what we do in scripted. It’s 12, 14 hour days.

00:05:32:20 – 00:05:51:03
Karen Katz
Yeah. You might as well be in Newark. I mean, for as much fun as it is. I mean, it’s you know, we had we were supposed to shoot Olu out and, you know, when they make the pig, where they cook the pig, they have to you know, you have to dig a big, deep hole in the ground and you put the pig in and it’s got to cook all day long.

00:05:51:14 – 00:06:11:23
Karen Katz
And it was a sunrise scene and the only one on the crew who was any help to me, thank God, was our head cameraman who and he was there to work. Everybody else was you know, they were whenever I turned around, they would be laying on a bench trying to get a tan. I mean, I was so frustrated.

00:06:12:11 – 00:06:26:00
Jim Serpico
Well, I love I love the little nuance of that. You wrote that show up late, that complaining about traffic, but they have coffee cups of their own. Exactly. Exactly. That’s classic. So what kind of producing were you doing before Emerald?

00:06:26:18 – 00:06:56:06
Karen Katz
Well, I started mostly in documentary, actually. I started as an editor. Actually, even before that, I was a production assistant and I kind of rose through the ranks and eventually blackmailed my boss into letting me edit at night in order for me to stay on as his office manager. So I got into editing and which was a great way to learn storytelling.

00:06:56:18 – 00:07:19:13
Karen Katz
You know, you learn not only what to put in, but what to take out. And that eventually led me to producing. So it was mostly documentary. I did a lot of children’s shows. I worked at Children’s Television Workshop, which is now Sesame Workshop on. You might remember this on a show called 3 to 1 Contact, which was a science show back in the day.

00:07:19:26 – 00:07:26:01
Karen Katz
Yeah. So and then worked at Nickelodeon for a bit. So it kind of went that way.

00:07:26:19 – 00:07:30:24
Jim Serpico
Sure. Hey, I hear a little rustling from the mic. I don’t know if it’s.

00:07:31:21 – 00:07:32:24
Karen Katz
Oh, it may be hitting.

00:07:33:07 – 00:07:34:03
Jim Serpico
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:07:34:04 – 00:07:35:27
Karen Katz
Okay. I’ll try to stay a still.

00:07:36:04 – 00:07:46:16
Jim Serpico
Sorry about that. No, no. Um, so prior to COVID, what were you working on?

00:07:47:13 – 00:08:13:10
Karen Katz
I was mostly I would have been was in Asia for about 6 to 8 months out of the last three years prior to COVID and I was what had happened was after my time with Buddy. I just was I just wanted to do something different. And I was talking to my agent at lunch and I said, you know, well, what about international work?

00:08:13:21 – 00:08:51:03
Karen Katz
And they had no idea that I had any interest in it. But, you know, as much as I love food, I love to travel and have food. So a gig came up about a show called Fit for Fashion. And the way I describe it is its sort of top model meets Biggest Loser, except with smaller people. And the idea was to take people who were kind of squishy, I would say, and get them into the best physical shape that they could possibly be so that they could rock the way to fashion on the runway.

00:08:51:04 – 00:09:15:24
Karen Katz
So every show had sort of a survivor-style challenge and a fashion challenge. And it really was an empowering show. But it was shot in Malaysia, in, you know, in a resort in the middle of the jungle. So it really took me all over Asia and doing insane kind of challenges with an international crew and an international cast.

00:09:16:12 – 00:09:33:21
Karen Katz
And it was great because the, you know, the AIDS, one of whom was a real foodie, would take me to night markets and take me all over, you know, places that tourists would never be able to go or find necessarily. And it was a fantastic experience. I just loved it.

00:09:35:05 – 00:10:06:20
Jim Serpico
So I do want to get into how COVID may have changed the way you think about your your life and your career. Before we do that, I’ve had some conversations on this program before about producing and talked to different types of producers. Now, in your case, you weren’t necessarily the one that went in with a pitch deck. I mean, you may have done that plenty of times in your career, but I did want the audience to understand that there are different types of producers, right?

00:10:06:20 – 00:10:26:28
Jim Serpico
And you had a real specialty in terms of when a show when a network decided they were going to go ahead with a program, they would find someone like you and in particular, they would maybe fight and try to get you and convince you to do the show. Mm hmm. Because you really knew how to execute and make this happen.

00:10:27:07 – 00:10:29:07
Jim Serpico
Right. That’s what a showrunner is, right?

00:10:29:13 – 00:10:31:09
Karen Katz
That’s exactly what the showrunner felt.

00:10:31:26 – 00:10:56:06
Jim Serpico
Right. So, you know, have you actually done the other side where you go in and pitch? Yeah, because I would think that if something nice about being sought after and having the expertise that you have and you don’t have that, I mean, you probably have other pressures, but it’s not like I have to self-generate this thing to make sure I get paid right.

00:10:56:22 – 00:11:21:21
Karen Katz
Well, the big differences and I have pitched and some times people bring me on to create a show which I then have to pitch to, to a network or to executives or whatever and their heads. I’ll try to explain the different levels. But first and foremost, yes, I’m the showrunner and that’s what I prefer because pitching is 95% rejection and failure.

00:11:22:00 – 00:11:48:10
Karen Katz
It is so difficult to sell a show that, you know, when when you don’t you’re right. When you don’t have to worry about selling something, you know, that is a huge stress off. And plus, if you’re being hired, you’re being paid. So development doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re making any money. And people I know producers who have I mean, some producers sell story to, you know, your track record.

00:11:48:10 – 00:12:07:08
Karen Katz
You know, it’s all of those things and it’s luck. I mean, if you if you think about it, you know, have you ever watched the show and you’re wondering, how the heck did that ever get on there? I mean, it’s so bad that and it makes you wonder. But sometimes bad shows get a green light and it shows never see the light of day.

00:12:07:20 – 00:12:34:07
Karen Katz
So it’s tough. It’s a tough. And of that business. And quite frankly, I just don’t have the stomach for it. It’s just not what I enjoy. I don’t enjoy pitching. I don’t interest enjoy. Often, you know, you’d be sitting across a person who has their own politics of the nation at the network or, you know, you know, they’re judging it for a variety of reasons, not always pure, shall we say.

00:12:34:19 – 00:12:38:20
Karen Katz
So as a showrunner, it’s it’s just, you know, you’re hired and you do a job.

00:12:39:03 – 00:13:11:14
Jim Serpico
Yeah. The way I was able to do it. And again, it’s part luck, right? I was able to I had a long-running show and I really seized that time period and went out with a lot of material while that show was going on and that was the way for me to do it. Right now, I don’t have a show on the air and we’re pitching, you know, we can get the meetings, but like you said, it’s 95% rejection.

00:13:11:14 – 00:13:36:10
Jim Serpico
It always was. But I have to say, it’s a harder it’s a little harder right now because of the consolidation. The other factor that goes into these things is like what we don’t know as sellers is exactly what’s going on behind the scenes at the networks. Right. In terms of the mandate, in terms of what they don’t want to reveal, we don’t have the same amount of money as we had last year.

00:13:36:10 – 00:13:54:07
Jim Serpico
So we’re not buying as many development projects. Right. They don’t want to let that cat out of the bag because they don’t want to seem like they’re suffering or in their position right. Um, and the other thing you got to keep up with the trends. Mm hmm. Food changed while you were in it. Sure. Absolutely. And it’s constantly changing.

00:13:54:10 – 00:14:15:20
Jim Serpico
Mm hmm. Absolutely. I feel like they can have whatever mandates they want to have, and they’re taking a guess like anyone else. Nobody really knows what’s going to work and what’s going to it. What’s going to hit Zeitgeisty and that’s why I still like if I believe in it, if I see something in it, I’m going to go for it.

00:14:15:28 – 00:14:16:09
Jim Serpico
Yeah.

00:14:16:17 – 00:14:36:25
Karen Katz
Well, I mean, being passionate about it is really critical. I mean, if you don’t believe in it, you know who else will. So, you know, I mean, I think that’s important. I mean, for me, what I find a little disappointing in the food space. I mean, there are two things. One thing I think is great and another not so great.

00:14:37:08 – 00:14:57:05
Karen Katz
So many shows are so derivative for, you know, all these competition shows. I mean, I can’t stand it. You can watch the format and see, you know, exactly what’s going to happen, who’s going to go. I mean, you can tell from the music cue or the music series of the same on the show. And that’s the downside, The Good stuff.

00:14:57:05 – 00:15:03:05
Karen Katz
And I think Netflix in particular is doing some amazing work. Some of those shows are just gorgeous.

00:15:03:17 – 00:15:21:17
Jim Serpico
Chef’s Table bass Table broke the mold also. Yeah, I don’t know how many seasons that’s got to be on for a long time. Yeah. Now it’s now it’s a cliche, to be honest. Like you can’t go into Netflix and say I’m doing Chef’s Table of blah, blah, blah. Right, Right. But I do love it. I do.

00:15:21:22 – 00:15:29:00
Karen Katz
Know. And and it’s beautiful And it’s and it’s thoughtful and it’s smart. You know, it doesn’t play down to the audience either.

00:15:29:00 – 00:15:50:14
Jim Serpico
So that produced and very well put insight into these artists who went into they had a calling in life you know and you’re really getting to understand those people combined with expert filmmakers. It’s just a great recipe for a television show.

00:15:50:18 – 00:16:08:24
Karen Katz
Yeah, it really I love it. And I mean, I love shows also. I think somebody’s feed felt you know, I feel like it’s charming, you know? And I mean that my husband always says, you know, well, if if they called, you go work for that, wouldn’t you? And I said, Yeah, but I think his brother Richard has that show tied up.

00:16:09:04 – 00:16:12:14
Karen Katz
But that would be the dream job. You know.

00:16:12:26 – 00:16:28:27
Jim Serpico
Six months ago, I, I installed a television where I bake because sometimes I’m baking for long hours and I, I started watching some some somebody or someone somebody feed.

00:16:28:27 – 00:16:30:07
Karen Katz
Somebody, somebody.

00:16:30:07 – 00:16:56:18
Jim Serpico
From BuzzFeed film. And I did not expect to like it because I don’t like a lot of food programing. I really don’t. I do love those Netflix things that we’re talking about. And of course, I love Bourdain and that kind of thing. And I expected this to be more like really over-the-top silly, but it was great. And he you can’t make that show with anyone but him.

00:16:56:21 – 00:17:18:11
Jim Serpico
Yeah, it’s his tone, right? And it’s his thing. And then he was touring and he he hit a theater out here in Long Island, and I went to see the live show. I really do. And he was great. That audience was full of fans of the show was 1200 people. It was just cool, man. Yeah.

00:17:18:18 – 00:17:34:03
Karen Katz
He well, you know, he’s genuinely passionate about food. I mean, you know, when he eats and his little hands go up and, you know, I mean, he’s just so happy. And why not? I mean, what a great gig. I mean, the guy’s got more money than God. He doesn’t have to do this.

00:17:34:03 – 00:18:01:26
Jim Serpico
But I love that he does it, you know, even though he has all that money, which is cool. But it’s he has such a unique personality. Yeah. Like whether he’s doing a TV show or not. This guy’s different. Yeah. Most people you meet men and. Well, that’s a good plug for a feature film. You know, I am. I am taking out some food.

00:18:01:26 – 00:18:17:26
Jim Serpico
Things. I’d like to try to mix my passions. But I do find it a struggle because of what we’re talking about. Tone and forced competition. Yeah, that’s not organic to the story you’re telling. So it feels contrived, right?

00:18:19:20 – 00:18:20:04
Karen Katz
Yeah.

00:18:20:04 – 00:18:20:12
Jim Serpico
I don’t.

00:18:21:01 – 00:18:41:15
Karen Katz
I don’t know how. I don’t know how to. To break that mold. I mean it I suppose it is interesting to me to watch, to see, like, you know, on Chopped or something like that where they have a basket of food and what the heck are they going to do with it? And they do always come up with something.

00:18:41:15 – 00:19:02:11
Karen Katz
The difference is we can’t taste it. I mean, the judges, you know, in theory, are judging honestly. But you got to figure some of that stuff just tastes awful. And but it might look good, you know? So that’s the one little you know, Emily used to talk about having smell a vision, you know? You know, but the you know, you can’t smell, you can’t taste anything.

00:19:02:11 – 00:19:06:22
Karen Katz
So it’s just got to look good right now.

00:19:07:05 – 00:19:17:18
Jim Serpico
What about and these guys, they seem to have like a certain period of time. You talk about body, you talk about ephemeral, Right. It doesn’t doesn’t last forever, does it?

00:19:18:12 – 00:19:26:18
Karen Katz
No. I mean, you know, ADM’s still on the air, but, you know, it’s like anybody and any show, I mean, not girls.

00:19:26:20 – 00:19:27:08
Jim Serpico
On the air.

00:19:27:16 – 00:19:58:12
Karen Katz
Yeah, it’s and it’s got some Roku show on and I think they’re really good. Yeah but and yeah and that no one stays you know it’s very rare to find someone on but he had a 15 year run and he is still on and I think he opened the door for a lot of shows, give him a lot of credit for you know you know, people like Bobby Flay, for example, if you ask Bobby, sorry, if you ask Bobby, he probably would say, you know, you know, it was thanks to Admiral.

00:19:58:12 – 00:20:23:23
Karen Katz
He opened the door. And Bobby actually has managed to stay relevant for a very long time. Alton Brown has managed to stay relevant for a real long time. And they they evolved into other formats. Well, you know, Bobby and his be Bobby Flay show and Alton Brown is just I mean, he really is brilliant. I mean, he’s just a really smart guy.

00:20:24:08 – 00:20:48:00
Karen Katz
And, you know, whether he was doing his own show or Iron Chef, you know, he’s a very smart, talented guy. So they evolved with it, you know, for moral. Not that he couldn’t. It just he has so much going on in his world with his restaurants and whatnot and, you know, his brand. And, you know, I think he had an incredible run.

00:20:48:00 – 00:21:04:07
Karen Katz
And, you know, I know he’s proud of it. I’m proud of it. And, you know, I think but like everyone else, you know, I mean, time time marches on. And, you know, there’s there’s no big story there. I just think it is the way that things have evolved.

00:21:04:22 – 00:21:08:03
Jim Serpico
Yeah. Did you see the recent Julia Child documents?

00:21:08:12 – 00:21:09:12
Karen Katz
Yeah, I loved that.

00:21:09:24 – 00:21:10:23
Jim Serpico
Yeah, It amazing.

00:21:11:02 – 00:21:28:11
Karen Katz
It’s fantastic. Fantastic. And, you know, Sarah Moulton used to work with Julia, and Sarah was a talent out, you know, for many, many years. And I mean, some of the stories she would tell were just fascinating. And yeah, I mean, I watch everything. Julia All of that.

00:21:28:27 – 00:21:42:25
Jim Serpico
Well, that one really was eye opening for me, for our listeners. If you haven’t seen it, it’s really worth checking out. She was a really interesting and cool personality.

00:21:43:23 – 00:22:10:08
Karen Katz
And she was on the show a couple of times actually, which was, you know, imagine like the Queen of England coming into your studio with all of the guests that we had over the over the years, musical guests, famous actors. There was nothing like the day Julia Child came. And she you know, she was older at that point, probably late eighties, as was, you know, towards the end of her life.

00:22:10:24 – 00:22:30:08
Karen Katz
And I remember, you know, when she came in, I, you know, try to keep my cool and not be overly, you know, like a fan geek. And I was trying to, you know, walk her through as a producer does like what we’re going to do. She she’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where’s the kitchen? I want to talk to the cooks.

00:22:30:25 – 00:22:50:19
Karen Katz
And I brought her back into the kitchen and she said, you know, probably a half hour, 45 minutes talking every single person in that kitchen. And she wanted to know what they were doing, where they went to culinary school. I mean, she was really a wonderful, wonderful woman. She could care less about the TV people, but she was really into the food people.

00:22:52:03 – 00:22:55:05
Jim Serpico
Can you talk a little bit about the swap out?

00:22:56:03 – 00:23:20:11
Karen Katz
Sure. You know, when I first started at Food Network, I mean, what I really had to do, I mean, I had been a producer for a long time, but I knew virtually nothing about producing food for TV. So the folks in the Food Network kitchen really took me under their wing. They were a great group of people and, you know, take a turkey, for example.

00:23:20:20 – 00:23:49:17
Karen Katz
You know, you can have a crew stand around for 4 hours. Why? It was a turkey roast. So you have to do things in stages and that’s what we call a swap out. So you literally put the Robert on the counter for the beginning of the scene and then the chef may season it and butter it to whatever they do, and then you literally move that one away and pull out another one that’s, you know, oh, are you you put that in the bottom of it.

00:23:50:02 – 00:24:14:01
Karen Katz
Go to your top of it and you pull out one that’s, you know, halfway down or all the way down and those are swap out. So to make a turkey, for example, you might have three or four turkeys on set in various stages. And that’s just how and you would swap out all kinds of things because you just can’t spend the time you know, time, as you know, in the studio, is money, so you just can’t wait for something to cook.

00:24:14:07 – 00:24:17:10
Karen Katz
So if something takes a while, you literally swap it out.

00:24:17:25 – 00:24:22:18
Jim Serpico
Yeah. Has there ever been an onset failure where something in one of the stages goes wrong.

00:24:23:24 – 00:24:46:25
Karen Katz
All the time? Yeah. Yeah. Well, the worst one was for me because it was my fault, not anybody else’s. You know, ADM could recover from almost anything, so you would just let him go. But at one point, it was making something silly, like popcorn. I don’t know what it was, but it burped, you know, And I never stopped him.

00:24:46:25 – 00:25:05:25
Karen Katz
You know, he would he was live to tape. He did not want to stop. You know, whatever happened, let it fly. But it was really bad. And you could, you know, the shot into the pot. It was just ugly. So I stopped tape and he was livid. I mean, that I stopped that he because I would have saved that.

00:25:05:25 – 00:25:27:00
Karen Katz
I would have figured something out. So then he would have made a joke out of it, you know? So yeah, things happen, but, you know, it’s really the talent, how they deal with it. I mean, some shows are stricter and they’ll just stop and, you know, they’ll fix it. But when you’re in front of a live audience, you know, it’s embarrassing for the talent to.

00:25:27:00 – 00:25:28:23
Karen Katz
Oh, yeah, yeah. Know, I mean, that happens.

00:25:28:24 – 00:25:30:13
Jim Serpico
Yeah. Comedy specials twice.

00:25:30:21 – 00:25:31:21
Karen Katz
Oh, yeah. That good.

00:25:32:11 – 00:26:03:23
Jim Serpico
One. Yeah. We were doing you know, you usually film to sets like the same thing, right? And then you cut the best pieces together and so on. So we had a great first show and then the comedian went home for the second show and a minute and a half in. We’re looking at the video village. Yeah. And we’re all going, Wait a second, we’re pointing at it and we’re like, Is this fly open and is sure to fly?

00:26:04:08 – 00:26:27:15
Jim Serpico
And we had to stop the show. We had to go off the stage. And they’re startled because they’re so in the zone. Sure. Right. They’re doing their thing. And in front of the audience, we had to say, your fly is open and we need to restart the show. Oh, God, yeah. Then another show. Uh oh. This one still drives me nuts to this day.

00:26:28:22 – 00:26:53:24
Jim Serpico
I wasn’t actually a producer on it. I was a a manager of the comedian. And but I was sitting in the video village, and this is what drives me nuts about bad producers. They, they the way they set the stage. There’s no props. Men in a comedy special except a stool, Right? So the stool was in front of the comedian with the water on it, right?

00:26:54:26 – 00:27:15:01
Jim Serpico
And now there’s the comedians doing the thing and there’s a conversation like, is this going to be this special? Like the water is the star of the show, Right. And there’s an argument. No, it’s fine that there no comedy. Like no what this is going on the air, you know, like we had to stop the show and she was pissed.

00:27:15:04 – 00:27:19:24
Karen Katz
Yes. Wow. That’s it’s breaking rhythms. I mean, you know, and it’s it’s tough.

00:27:20:12 – 00:27:22:09
Jim Serpico
Well, you got to do those jokes again.

00:27:22:13 – 00:27:26:02
Karen Katz
Right in front of an audience. Yeah, that’s the worst.

00:27:26:02 – 00:27:33:16
Jim Serpico
Oh, man, it’s bad. Yeah, but, you know, what was the choice at that moment? I think I made the right choice by stopping it. Right.

00:27:34:23 – 00:27:55:22
Karen Katz
Well, you know, for me, I always would balance if I had the time to think about it, you know? And I always had the time to think about it. But, you know, what is this? You know what’s worse? You know, stopping and pissing off the talent or can I fix it, fix this and edit it, you know, And usually you can fix anything in editing.

00:27:56:05 – 00:27:57:21
Jim Serpico
So that’s a tough one.

00:27:57:23 – 00:28:01:10
Karen Katz
Yeah, it is. I mean, you know, sometimes it’s really bad. You have to do it.

00:28:01:27 – 00:28:09:19
Jim Serpico
You know? And then, then now we have to match the second show. We have to put the stool in front of her again. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah, that’s right.

00:28:10:07 – 00:28:28:13
Karen Katz
Yeah, that’s. That’s bad. That’s rough. We never did anything twice. I mean, very rarely did we read. Do you know? I mean, sometimes we pick something up or whatever, but to have to match it, that would have been impossible. I mean, with food in particular, all the different stages, that’s that would be tough.

00:28:28:28 – 00:28:47:22
Jim Serpico
Yeah. You know, I’m shooting food myself as, you know, part of what I’m doing. And then I have a lot of friends now that are in that own restaurant and I collaborate with them and I end up doing the shooting and yeah, it’s a different thing because yeah, because of what you’re saying, it’s always different. But, um, it’s fun.

00:28:48:06 – 00:29:10:13
Jim Serpico
Yeah, I really like it. And there are also, like, ways to do it now. Maybe like for me, that’s probably what I would do is do it more on Instagram and YouTube in support of like this bread company I have. And, but, but you know, it’s also hard to do without the crew and like, they do it really right to make it look good.

00:29:10:20 – 00:29:11:02
Karen Katz
Right.

00:29:11:17 – 00:29:16:28
Jim Serpico
Cause you were talking about in the piece you wrote about Hawaii, right? They there was it was a pretty decent sized crew.

00:29:17:04 – 00:29:45:03
Karen Katz
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we we always had, you know, because what although we were doing remote stories, we also were doing some live shows, you know, at some hotel with people because it still was Ember alive. So, you know, I mean, we pick up a lot of local people when we travel, But, you know, we always had, I don’t know, ten for a remote, you know, ten, 15 people, easy.

00:29:45:03 – 00:29:49:28
Karen Katz
But the show itself was about 90 people. It was a lot. It was big shot.

00:29:50:11 – 00:29:58:09
Jim Serpico
A lot of people, right? Yeah. What was the I’ve been on the set of the what? Adam Richman show. What was that show. Oh.

00:29:58:24 – 00:29:59:18
Karen Katz
Man.

00:29:59:27 – 00:30:16:12
Jim Serpico
Versus versus food. Yeah. They had a small skeleton crew. I think they only had about six people. Yeah. So it may be another one of like these game changing running gun type of shows, which I do think are good.

00:30:16:24 – 00:30:19:06
Karen Katz
Yeah, well, I like Diners.

00:30:19:06 – 00:30:21:09
Jim Serpico
Drive-Ins. Right. What do they call a triple DS?

00:30:21:09 – 00:30:21:15
Karen Katz
Yeah.

00:30:21:15 – 00:30:30:24
Jim Serpico
Triple J in the in the food space as I just started pitching these food shows recently, people like triple D and like, what’s triple D, right? Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:31:11 – 00:30:57:25
Karen Katz
But everyone, you know, I mean, look at Guy Fieri came. You know, he was a contestant, I think on next Food Network star if I’m remembering this right and he just blew up, you know, put his sunglasses on the back of your head and off you go. So but yeah, Diners, Drive-Ins, I mean, to me, that’s, you know, again, one of those shows that you know, it’s formulaic, you know, let’s go somewhere, let’s eat.

00:30:58:04 – 00:31:00:26
Karen Katz
But that’s all personality driven. And so.

00:31:00:27 – 00:31:02:10
Jim Serpico
Personality driven, small.

00:31:02:10 – 00:31:02:19
Karen Katz
Person.

00:31:02:19 – 00:31:20:27
Jim Serpico
And it’s not the guy, the people behind the scenes, the men are the women that are the chefs that being featured are being organic, right? Yeah. Shot right. It’s not they’re not contrived, which I write for me is what I like.

00:31:21:06 – 00:31:46:11
Karen Katz
Yeah, Yeah. And, and that’s really was for me. I love remote shooting I mean to I can’t remember a food shoot we did with another chef or, you know, restaurant owner or whatever that is so gracious people there’s it’s they don’t call it the hospitality industry for nothing. I mean people were lovely and granted you’re doing something really nice for them.

00:31:46:11 – 00:31:56:26
Karen Katz
But on the other hand, they were very genuinely gracious always. They always said, my crew, you know, without being asked. I mean, it was very nice.

00:31:58:03 – 00:32:20:03
Jim Serpico
You know, we talk about like these shows and that type of show isn’t being done as much and it keeps changing. Phil Rosenthal tells a great story in his life show about pitching. It wasn’t easy for him, even though he’s the showrunner. He talks about going to the Travel Channel, pitching the show, and they’re like, We don’t want to do shows about travel anymore.

00:32:21:08 – 00:32:31:14
Jim Serpico
Yeah, the Food Network. And they’re like, We’re really trying to stay away from food. Right? Exactly. He’s got great stories and anecdotes about getting that show set up.

00:32:31:14 – 00:32:35:21
Karen Katz
But I mean, he’s not wrong. I mean, they say stuff like that. So.

00:32:36:04 – 00:32:38:22
Jim Serpico
Seriously. Yeah, it’s not made up now.

00:32:38:22 – 00:32:41:04
Karen Katz
It’s made up.

00:32:41:04 – 00:32:50:24
Jim Serpico
So leading up to COVID, you’re you’re doing your your thing and the business is shut down. Yeah, all of it.

00:32:50:24 – 00:32:51:04
Karen Katz
Yeah.

00:32:51:18 – 00:33:12:00
Jim Serpico
I was shocked. I’m sure everything you were working on was shot. We got pitch we couldn’t produce. We didn’t know what the hell was going on with our personal lives. Right. Um, most of us didn’t know how long it would last, right? So, like, the first month, two months, I was like, We’re going to make the best of it.

00:33:12:00 – 00:33:32:03
Jim Serpico
And I was doing a lot of life stuff with comedians. Mm hmm. Six months in, it’s like, All right, this is getting old. How many times are we going to beg people to come on to these zooms, right, or whatever? And that started to slow down. I certainly had a I gave up my office in Manhattan. Actually, I was in one of these co-working spaces, right.

00:33:32:13 – 00:33:51:02
Jim Serpico
For three years before that, which I loved. But I wasn’t going to pay every month rent and I didn’t know if I was ever going to go back to that because to this day, they’re still taking Zoom meetings. Mm hmm. Yeah, I. I didn’t travel as much to sell these shows. What a cove do to you.

00:33:52:01 – 00:34:17:14
Karen Katz
Well, you know, for me, you know, mostly when I’m running a show, I’m running a big show, and I really did not feel comfortable, even with all the protocols of going out and hanging out with a bunch of 20 and 30 year olds on my crew who may not be so careful. And, you know, in the beginning of COVID, it was really scary, I think, for everybody.

00:34:17:14 – 00:34:40:22
Karen Katz
Nobody really knew. And it was kind of coinciding at a time where I was starting to think about slowing down that part of my career. I would got much more interested in writing, you. You know, I like telling, you know, every time I go to tell a story with a crew, I got a deal with an entourage. You know, it just takes forever.

00:34:40:22 – 00:35:08:08
Karen Katz
And I, I guess I was losing my patience a little bit. And I had always had an idea for a book in mind. And I finally took the time during COVID to write it. And, you know, I’m really proud of it. It’s called getting sourced. How everything I know about food I learned from TV and it’s really about not just my life at Food Network, but about my life in food.

00:35:08:08 – 00:35:27:19
Karen Katz
You know, I grew up on Long Island to a mother who hated to cook, and it was terrible. And, you know, it’s sort of about my journey. How does someone who knows nothing about food, you know, end up being an executive producer and working with some of the best chefs in the world? So it’s a fun little romp.

00:35:29:08 – 00:36:09:25
Karen Katz
But I love it, you know, and I love being able to tell stories without anybody around, to be honest. So it’s been a nice transition for me. And during COVID, I mean, I did work. I mean, I did some work for Al Roker’s Company. You know, I developed some shows for them as a writer, which was great. And I just loved it, you know, So to you know, for me, the combination of COVID plus, the energy it takes to do these massive shows, you know, it was getting it wasn’t as much fun as it used to be.

00:36:10:14 – 00:36:31:05
Karen Katz
And so, you know, so I think that’s really it just is a combination of things. And so, you know, it’s not that I won’t, you know, run another show, but it’s it’s it’s I’m really giving my writing a shot. And that’s really been really joyful for me, to be honest.

00:36:31:24 – 00:36:35:00
Jim Serpico
Right. That’s amazing. And you’ve been doing a lot of traveling.

00:36:36:05 – 00:36:51:11
Karen Katz
Well, I was doing a lot of traveling prior to COVID. I just started up again, you know, I was Mexico recently and actually on a writer’s retreat, but I had the most incredible food experiences there. Yeah.

00:36:51:13 – 00:36:53:04
Jim Serpico
Part of Mexico.

00:36:53:04 – 00:37:18:26
Karen Katz
Well, I was just I don’t know if I was north of Guadalajara, not quite sure, but I was in Mexico City and then Oaxaca, and then I was in Guadalajara for the retreat. But there was a woman where I was staying who, you know, she just lived in the village, and she’s this fantastic cook. And so I actually worked on my Spanish just so I could talk to her, so she could tell me about her.

00:37:18:27 – 00:37:28:24
Karen Katz
She had made the best chili kids I’ve ever had. And so I just really wanted to get her recipes. So it was worth trying, you know, spending weeks on Duolingo.

00:37:29:10 – 00:37:34:05
Jim Serpico
But that’s great. I saw that you were in the U.S. Virgin Islands.

00:37:34:11 – 00:37:35:12
Karen Katz
Yes. Yes.

00:37:35:25 – 00:37:37:01
Jim Serpico
That’s a place you like to go.

00:37:37:04 – 00:37:59:20
Karen Katz
Yeah, we my husband and I call it the happy place. And we have been back since COVID. And, you know, they’ve had a real rough time down in the Caribbean, you know, not just all the hurricanes, but then with COVID and whatnot. So it’s nice to see everyone there recovering, you know, as best as they can. But a lot of people don’t know.

00:38:00:05 – 00:38:04:26
Jim Serpico
The U.S. Virgin Islands is considered a national park. And yeah.

00:38:04:28 – 00:38:05:07
Karen Katz
St.

00:38:05:07 – 00:38:15:13
Jim Serpico
John’s. And yeah, there was there was a there was a shutdown in the parks and they couldn’t collect the garbage at the beaches. Yeah. Yeah. It didn’t mean.

00:38:15:16 – 00:38:16:05
Karen Katz
It was bad.

00:38:16:20 – 00:38:20:23
Jim Serpico
U.S. Virgin Islands is one of my favorite places. Have you ever been to skinny legs?

00:38:21:09 – 00:38:25:13
Karen Katz
Of course. Of course. Yeah. Although it’s always so crowded.

00:38:26:13 – 00:38:26:20
Jim Serpico
You know.

00:38:27:01 – 00:38:31:11
Karen Katz
That parking lot is so crowded. You know, that parking lot. You can’t get in there.

00:38:32:25 – 00:38:43:26
Jim Serpico
It’s a little bit from most the places. It’s a to drive. Uh, but it’s worth it. And then you show up to this bar on the water. It’s just unbelievable. Well, wait.

00:38:44:12 – 00:39:05:20
Karen Katz
Did you ever go up to shipwreck Landing? That was our favorite. That’s just. Oh, that’s just up another road. I forget which one that is. There’s alot, I think. And unfortunately, it it got destroyed during the last hurricane. Yeah, it was, it was awful.

00:39:05:25 – 00:39:13:01
Jim Serpico
But then there’s another place. You take the boat across to The Soggy Dollar bar. Yeah.

00:39:13:01 – 00:39:14:11
Karen Katz
I just think.

00:39:15:13 – 00:39:26:05
Jim Serpico
That’s a great way. I. I’ve never done that. We talk about it and my kids love it too. We would love to do Airbnb in the U.S. Virgin Islands.

00:39:26:12 – 00:39:38:23
Karen Katz
Oh, we do it all the time. We do it all. Yeah. Oh, but when? When we’re off, if you want a couple of suggestions, we stayed on. That’s all we did. We stay a bunch of houses there. That’s all I did. Yeah.

00:39:38:23 – 00:39:55:19
Jim Serpico
It’s, I love what I love about Saint John’s is it doesn’t feel commercial and built up because the beaches are just beaches and they’re not terribly lake deep meaning in terms of the sand you might have six feet.

00:39:55:26 – 00:39:56:10
Karen Katz
Right.

00:39:56:10 – 00:40:07:10
Jim Serpico
Right. You know but you park your car in the street and you go and it feels a little more a little more primitive and way less commercial than all these other places. And that’s that.

00:40:08:01 – 00:40:10:14
Karen Katz
That’s exactly why we go there. That’s why we love it.

00:40:10:22 – 00:40:32:17
Jim Serpico
Yeah, well, my last question for you is going to put you on the spot. Oh, boy. Can you tell me about one of your most memorable meals? One of your most memorable meals, where it was and who you were with, and why was it so memorable?

00:40:32:17 – 00:40:58:09
Karen Katz
Yes, I can. Well, it was many, many, many years ago. I had gone to Europe before I was married. I had gone to Europe with a couple of girlfriends and I was meeting up with this guy who I had a big crush on in. So I’m going to meet the problem, which is, isn’t it around the Avignon area.

00:40:58:28 – 00:41:23:20
Karen Katz
And I, we were friends and I wanted to promote him to boyfriend, but I’m not sure he had the same idea. But we went out for dinner at this place called Days Out, which it was the bistro in the middle of town. And I had the best bouillabaisse of my life. The best it was. The ring was perfect.

00:41:23:20 – 00:41:44:03
Karen Katz
I kept putting the ring in the in the broth, and it was so garlicky, so good. So after dinner, I think, you know, this is going to be real romantic. I so reeked of garlic that he wouldn’t come near me. I mean, it was just awful. And for days, the garlic just poured.

00:41:44:03 – 00:41:45:21
Jim Serpico
Out of my thing.

00:41:45:21 – 00:41:59:20
Karen Katz
But. And needless to say, he was not the man I married, but he. He moved on. But can I say the bully bass was worth it? I think it was. I actually. Things worked out. Yeah.

00:41:59:24 – 00:42:19:19
Jim Serpico
That’s amazing. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you coming on. I want to thank our mutual friend Michel Amore. Yeah. Bringing this to me. I love Michel. She’s seen her in quite a while. But as you know, when you go through battle with someone like that on a project, your friends for life.

00:42:19:20 – 00:42:21:13
Karen Katz
Absolutely. You’re in the trenches.

00:42:21:26 – 00:42:29:11
Jim Serpico
So shout out to Michel. I love you, Michel. It was great getting to know you, and I appreciate you joining me today.

00:42:29:14 – 00:42:34:17
Karen Katz
Oh, it is my pleasure. So call me and I’ll tell you all about my places in Saint John.

00:42:35:01 – 00:42:37:10
Jim Serpico
Absolutely. Okay, Take.